.......in the Friday rush hour.....WTF is going on?


Cancellations to services between London Paddington and Maidenhead
Due to a shortage of train crew between London Paddington and Maidenhead fewer trains are able to run.
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled. Disruption is expected until 19:30 15/09.

 
Union meeting?

 

Having done a bit of digging, I think those cancellations (and probably a large slice of other cancellations due to crew shortages across the network) are being caused by the company removing the incentive to do overtime or break Union rules by coming off their shift to cover another.  This is as a result of pressure from the Union following widespread breaking of those union rules.

As an example, previously a driver might be asked to do an hours overtime on a 10 hour shift, but they would get another extra hour of pay as an extra incentive, no rules broken doing that but they are now only getting the hours extra they work and no extra incentive.  Or a driver would be asked to come in to cover a different shift (which does break the 'rules') and again there would be an incentive for them to do that. 

Those incentives are now not being offered, so many drivers are no longer interested in helping out.

 
Very interesting II thanks for the background............a load more cancellations tonight due to crew shortages and this made worse by events at Ealing.

 
............lots more cancellations this morning - according to GWRHelp;

"We don't have the specifics as to why drivers are unavailable I'm afraid. There are staff rostered in for the services" -

clearly the instruction to GWR staff is "be ambiguous"

 
I wonder whether they've been poached by Norwegian railways? 

 
At least Ryanair can admit its bad management though.

I assume that GWR are recruiting to sort this mess out? I accept an odd day for an anomaly of sickness levels etc, but not daily. If its ongoing training they should have adequate staffing to release others for training.

Are the management not keeping their staff happy? Happy staff will almost always help between them to cover shifts but when morale is low the answer is normally "no".

 
From II's post yesterday (see above) and what's been demonstrated every weekend (and weekdays now too) the answer is clearly no.

 
Here's an item that could fit in at least four current threads:

PACA region of France proposes to privatise its railway network. (nothing in English)

The boss of SNCF has admitted that they didn't forecast how many drivers would retire last year and this, and now need to find 1000 extra ones. PACA (Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur) was badly hit by train cancellations as a result, and  has imposed financial penalties on SNCF.

French regions buy rail services from SNCF, often paying well over half the cost. PACA and some neighbours are now saying the bill is too high, and have started the process of looking for another operator to buy services from. This would be based on the open access market model mandated by the EU, and in the case of PACA it could genuinely be cross-border - not just Liguria but Monco too.

Of course this is also a way of putting pressure on SNCF, and a negotiating tactic is probably all it will ever be.

 
In view of these apparently ongoing problems, I have now expanded the heading of this topic. 

 

From listening to drivers' moaning (which is most of the time), it is the Union that has brought in rules to stop incentives, not GWR.  A driver CAN extend and get an incentive, but CANNOT get an incentive to work a rest day or change shifts.  Additionally any signed routes or traction that a driver does not have in his/her normally rostered duty must come off their competence card.

 

Plenty of trainee drivers currently going through the system, though it takes time especially with a general shortage of instructors, some of whom often drive trains that their trainees won't drive, so much of their shift is wasted.   So the company are certainly guilty of doing too little too late and in a very inefficient way IMHO.

 
What would be really good, and would make a refreshing change, would be a statement from Hopwood apologising & explaining fully and frankly all the issues with lack of drivers, serviceable trains, poor levels of customer service etc and giving a recovery plan for each....that would show decency, leadership  & courage...........I'm not holding my breath.

 
I agree.  Why not email him personally with that very suggestion?

 

May just do that, I'll update all after Christmas when I get a reply (not sure which Christmas that'll be though judging by the speed of GWR replies!).......although to be honest, if he can't do the right thing without being told by a customer, it's a pretty poor reflection of him & the Business he runs.

 
Responses from Mark H personally come back quite smartish in my experience - he may of course, pass your query to customer services.

 

.......in which case the trainee drivers alluded to earlier by II will probably have retired by the time a reply arrives.....

 

A TG says, if he needs prompting like that from a disgruntled customer, he really ought to re-consider his future in the service sector.

Like him or loath him, Michael O'Leary has got it spot on this time by holding his hand up and saying 'we made a mistake' and taking the public responsibility. Mr Hopwood, please take note.

 
Though it seems as though Mr O'Leary is at increasing war with his pilots over the issue, so maybe that aspect of his tactics should be avoided.

 

Indeed.

Nevertheless M.O'L has been big enough to stand up in front of the media and his company's AGM and tell them he's made a huge cock up, mostly taking personal responsibility for that problem.

As has been noted elsewhere on the forum, Mr Hopwood seems to have become the invisible man of late, now that things aren't going quite so well to plan.

 

I am disappointed as well that Mark Hopwood has not made a public apology - even if it was a letter on the seats of trains as had been the case before.  Though had GWR been on the front cover of national newspapers and a lead article on national TV news programmes, like Ryanair have been, I am sure Mark Hopwood would have been forced into doing something.  Had Ryanair been subjected to the fairly low press coverage, mostly small articles in local newspapers, like GWR have been, then I expect Michael O'Leary would have taken a much lower profiled approach.  He's clearly a worried man!

 

I'm sure M.O'L is indeed a little worried currently! Although a 'marmite' character, his business success in an extremely competitive marketplace cannot be denied and I am sure he will likely turn things around after this slip up, as long as he can do so without alienating his workforce too much.

Mr Hopwood however, has the comfortable umbrella of First Group and a fixed term monopoly position to hide underneath and appears to be doing just that. If the status quo continues at GWR, I can see a few headlines looming on the horizon...

 
......as my dear old Grandad used to say, anyone can run, hide, make excuses or blame others, but it takes a man to stand up & say sorry.

 

Or the alternative version of "anyone can run, hide, make excuses or blame others, but it takes a desperate man to stand up & say sorry."

 

Not really. There is dignity in apologising for failure. Much more than can be found in hiding behind the Boardroom door. I know which I'd regard as more desperate.

 
Oh I agree, TG.  Though dignity from Michael O'Leary doesn't seem to have had much effect on this current Ryanair PR disaster.

 
An oddity as a result of this - currently sitting on a class 165  of the delayed 20:13 between Paddington and Ealing Broadway and have the entire train to myself. They were only boarding the front carriages until merging the trains. I then  snuck back to the back three coaches all to myself...

 
Bith the last two Oxford/Banbury shuttles this evening have been cancelled! That's 25% of services today.
Oh, we list the first one today to a failed train too.
So that's actually 37.5% gone today

 
When I saw that earlier today on Journey Check I thought that would get your attention.

 

I'll happily help you draft a letter to Mr Hopwood. 

 

Could throw in services on the Cardiff to Portsmouth Hbr/Brighton on Sundays as well for good measure

 
I'll get a better response by going to the relevant Director

 
06:42 Hereford - Paddington cancelled between Hereford and Worcester Shrub Hill this morning.

Fortunately I'd arrived at Foregate St in sufficient time to catch the preceding London Midland train round to Shrub Hill.

According to realtimetrains,

According to journeycheck,

Which should I believe?

 
Was there fog in your area? That might have delayed the crews taxi up to HFD, meaning they went to WOS?

Does Realtimetrains show an ECS move from HFD at usual time, or did the stock go direct to WOS?

 
Apart from the Hereford/Worcesters mentioned above, things seem to be much improved this morning with no cancellations due to train crew shortages.

 
According to realtimetrains, the 06:42 from Hereford is formed by an empty stock movement from St Philip's Marsh at 04:30, arrive Hereford 06:29. This didn't operate "due to an issue with the train crew".

Judging from the shuffling of stock that I could see at Shrub Hill, the HST that normally sleeps there so as to form the 07:08 departure to Paddington via Cheltenham (and its crew) were used for the 07:32 departure to Paddington via Oxford. The HST was in reverse formation, which is what I'd expect if it was supposed to operate via Gloucester.

The 07:08 via Cheltenham is being shown in realtimetrains as having been cancelled between Shrub Hill and Cheltenham, but operating normally beyond. There's an empty stock movement from St Philip's Marsh (depart 05:10) associated with this.

 
On Thursday evening of last week I was up in London for a show. The most convenient train for me back to Twyford would have been the 2318 PAD-OXF semi-fast but I checked RTT and discovered it was being regularly cancelled "due to an issue with the train crew". Instead I drove and parked in Westfield and used the Tube from there. I've just taken a look at RTT and so far that train's been cancelled every night this week.

 
Yes, the 23:18 is often sacrificed as the driver and train work empty from Oxford at around 9pm, so a driver and carriages can be used for other duties for over three and a half hours with the cancellation of just that one train.  Also, there's the 23:30 fast to Reading which Reading passengers can use.  I think, at that time of night, stops on that 23:30 should be inserted at Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford given the generous running times at that time of night, but I've not observed that to be the case.

 
Just one for today so far o the LTV - Maidenhead this evening

 

The 23.18 is quite a vital post-pub train, and is regularly very busy. All I can say is that GwR had better get this mess sorted by the time that Christmas party season starts or they will be needing some extra BTP at Paddington to deal with very frustrated and lively passengers.
Ps. 17.36 to Oxford, rammed in its normal 5 carriage form, is a pleasant 2 carriage squash-fest today - and left passengers on the platform.

 
The 17.36 is meant to be a 8 car HST. Replacing it with a 5 car turbo would be just about manageable as that's what it use to be. Some people standing but generally folks could get on. The 2 cars though is just a joke and becoming all to frequent.

 
No, the 17:36 is diagrammed as a turbo (and has been since 4th September) therefore I'm assuming 5 car as NickB said

 
18:22 Paddington - Hereford cancelled this evening between Shrub Hill and Hereford "due to a shortage of train crew"

 

Pretty sure its been a HST last couple of times I've caught it although I've generally been taking advantage of the 17.18 stopping at Twyford again. If it is going to be a 5 car turbo again (in theory) that's a bit of a disappointment.

 
The 17.36 certianly used to be an 8 car HST and needed to be as such. It toyed with being an adelante when an HST was removed for a few weeeks last summer. The 5 car turbo is poor and the 2 car is criminal.

This simply shifts more passengers for maidenhead to the next direct service which is the  perennially overcrowded 18.18 which is a turbo itself and is the worst train of the schedule.

 
GWR seem to be gradually removing the HSTs from the Maidenhead timetable.. So having given us extra capacity with the EMUs they are then taking it away again.. Added to that the lack of drivers and therefore train cancellations it feels like one step forward and two steps back currently.. That will teach me to be so optimistic! 

 

There's also the 17:49 HST which also usually loads to near/full capacity but is occasionally subbed with a 180 or Turbo.  Stopping on the main line it will often do the run in a very impressive 17 minutes for the 24 miles, though if you're at the back of the queue for the steps then you can add another three minutes before you can get off the platform unless you walk down the ramp to the car park!

 

This practice will stop in January, with what looks like the last service from Greenford and the evening Bourne End shuttle forming at Paddington to create the 23:20 to Oxford

 

Could be time to call the PM again. She got the HSTs reinstalled last time FGW tried to ditch them.
Another morning commuter mentioned one of the morning HSTs has been canned recently as well. The 8.02??

 
The former 07:59? service which was an HST has now been replaced by the 08:02 8 car electric service since beginning of the month.

I don't know how busy the HST got but at least you now have a guaranteed seat on that service (when it runs  )

 
Hopefully its only temporary but the 06.53 from Twyford has been only 3 carriages a couple of times this week. Gets a bit cosy and more so by Maidenhead. It was its customary 3-5 minutes late so GWR are keeping some things as before.

 
48 cancellations already today, all due to shortage of train crew. Still not a whisper from Hopwood.

I think it's time for fewer "keynote" speeches from him, and more attention to the day to day operation of his business.

 
And stop wasting money on fantasy adverts that show nothing of the reality of travelling GWR at the moment which could go to paying your staff to actually run something passengers pay you to do... trains!

I'd hate to think how much it cost First to run that ad during prime time Saturday night on ITV. No comfort if you were going to be on one of their 48 cancelled or 21 terminating/starting short services today.

Without being able to look back, this looks to be one of the worst Sundays for cancelled/affected services down to train crew. Is this 'unofficial' action (which they are entitled to do) by train crew escalating?

 
Yep - the 7.59am HST (8 coaches) and the 8.02am from Henley (5 coaches) which ran non stop from Maidenhead to Paddington have been replaced by one 8 carriage electric train. The 7.59am was probably the busiest HST other than the 7.08am.. I've not tried the 8.02am electric train but I'm pretty sure you won't be guaranteed a seat on it seeing the amount of people who used to use the 7.59am...

I am looking forward to a week of cancellations again since the Electric train drivers have been working this weekend...

As I said - one step forward and two massive ones back. Thanks GWR  - I expect you'll still be happy to take my money when I go to get my new monthly ticket later

 

I did post in another thread, but the engineering work imposed by NR didn't give enough notice for GWR to issue amended crew diagrams, so in many cases they were relying on staff cooperation.  With incentives to cooperate recently removed at the behest of the union and other things such as West and LTV drivers now being paid much less (circa 8k a year) less than their HSS colleagues, goodwill is unsurprising quite thin on the ground at the moment.

 

Without wanting to go too far off topic, how does GWR get away with slashing services like this?  Who holds them to account and challenges the decision making process? They just seem to come up with an idea and run with it without any thought or consideration, and once it's done it's harder to undo.

 
A round trip from Paddington to Hereford cancelled today - 12:42 from Paddington, and 16:34 back from Hereford.

According to JourneyCheck,

According to realtimetrains,

 
The planning error being that they mistakenly thought drivers would actually turn up on a Sunday

 

Isn't it covered by Section 7 of the Franchise Agreement?  I think a lot of the blame lays with the client, DfT, for not enforcing it.....
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-great-western

 

The planning error is that they don't have enough crew to run all the trains 

I've travelled today on a Great Western train, a Cross Country train, a Virgin West Coast train and an Arriva  Trains Wales train, and am now on a vehicle run by Irish Ferries.   

Once I departed Bristol (see picture attached), I saw no further signs of last minute cancellations on the departure boards at Birmingham New Street or Crewe ... which rather goes to prove it can be done!

 

You must be psychic!!!

07:17 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 08:03
07:17 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 08:03 will be started from Ealing Broadway.
It will no longer call at Maidenhead, Burnham, Slough, Langley and West Drayton.
This is due to a shortage of train drivers

06:12 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 06:58
06:12 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 06:58 will be cancelled.
This is due to a shortage of train drivers.

 
And the 06.40 Maidenhead to Paddington is cancelled.

Useless.

 
Looking forward to my trip home already. Fortunately I have an understanding manager who doesn't mind a bit of flexibility but it must be really tough if you're on a fixed shift or start times.

 
0734 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington
This service was cancelled throughout due to an issue with the train crew

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C20004/2017/09/25/advanced

 
Out of interest, what will happen to the class 360 drivers? Will they be transferred to crossrail or stay with GWR and operate class 387s?

If the latter then that would be a handful of extra drivers added to the roster pool from May? next year when TFL takes over the Heathrow stoppers.

 
The Heathrow Connect drivers are not GWR drivers, they are the same drivers that drive the Heathrow Express trains.  Not sure what will happen to them next year though.

 
Not too many alternative options for shift workers with these two cancelled.......a long, long wait for some.

28/09/17 02:24 Reading to London Paddington due 03:18 will be cancelled.
This is due to a shortage of train drivers.

28/09/17 03:34 London Paddington to Reading due 04:30 will be cancelled.
This is due to a shortage of train drivers.

 
How many shifts start at thise times?

All they would carry are those finishing after midnight. Bar workers mainly

 

I've just been looking at RTT for overnight last night, Down stoppers from PAD at 22:57, 23:49, 01:34, then 05:17 & 06:12 were all cancelled due to "an issue with the train crew". After the 01:34 there's nothing for another 2 hours so presumably taxis were provided?

 
Crew shortages. What did they expect to happen?  TfL are recruiting all new drivers rather than take them from GWR.
Once CrossRail starts and takes over services from GWR there is a good chance that the current GWR will close. As a result drivers are leaving and who can blame them. They aren’t going to sit and wait to be made redundant.
The whole situation has been handled very poorly considering not that many years ago GWR heavily recruited drivers in the area with the expectation of them being transferred over to CrossRail

 
Taking them from GWR would presumably mean TUPEing them on existing T&Cs?

Going out & recruiting them directly means they can be offered the contract TfL/Crossrail want them to have. Who can blame TfL?

 
With Boxing Day working included for example.  Along with having to set up a new relationship with unions rather than an existing one established over many decades.

Personally I don't think the situation is quite as bleak as 'a-driver' thinks, but time will tell.

 

Why would the "present GWR close" ? Surely GWR will still be running all the non  Crossrail routes and will still need large numbers of drivers to so do.
First group might lose the franchise of course, but that is a separate issue, and the new operator would have to take on the drivers.

 
Peak services out of Paddington being cancelled tonight, looks like mostly 387s........all that money spent on these lovely new trains, but someone forgot they need people to drive them...............

 
1521 Worcester Shrub Hill to Paddington cancelled due to 'Shortage of Train Crew' according to RTT.
Empty stock running on the same schedule http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O31084/2017/09/29/advanced, so I assume that is a shortage of guard's.

And the obvious substitute from Oxford the 1611 or 1638 to Marylebone are also cancelled, this is due to a broken down train at Denham.

 
And also on the Basingstoke <-> Reading shuttle
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C20702/2017/09/29
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C20703/2017/09/29

 
Are any forum members close enough to gwr to understand if they recognise this as a problem??   Obviously there is no use asking customer services about this as I won't get a reply until crossrail goes live, but it would be reassuring to know that this at least registers as a problem and someone is working on it...

 
I notice London - Worcester/Hereford services aren't stopping at Foregate St to due a shortage of station staff. Is this because of a requirement for HSTs to be dispatched by someone on the platform owing to the curve?

 
Got my answer 
http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/15567228.Delays_at_Worcester_rail_station_due_to_staff_sickness/

Yes owing to the curvature of the platforms

 

The operational team that's trying to schedule the rotas is only too aware there's a problem.   It's recognised as a problem as you get further from the operation team, but the problem becomes muted as you move steps away from the actual team trying to squeeze five cups of tea out of 4 teabags.    Because crew training is a convenient reason (and probably with much more than a grain of truth in it) and next year's training program is 33% down on this year's, the strategists away from the front line may be tempted to see it as a temporary problem, especially when they look at new crew being trained to add to the rotas next year.

 

.........strategists? Are you suggesting GWR have some? 😉

 
Exeter conductors are being trained to work HSTs as conductors (not the pocket rockets).

 
A number of tomorrow mornings services to/from Paddington already being cancelled/curtailed.

 
I shall therefore brace myself for the likely need to further expand the heading of this particular topic to include October ... 

 

There are two depots at Paddington.  HSS & LTV.  It is thought that Paddington LTV will only be a small depot, significantly smaller than it is now and there has been rumours it will relocate to West Ealing where the 387's are stabled.  Drivers who are LTV to the core are leaving the company or transferring over to HSS so it shows what a bleak future they believe the depot has.  The Bedwyn & fast Oxford services will be operated with IEP's, if this goes to HSS it will leave Paddington LTV with just the Greenford's.  The rest of the work can be covered by other depots.  Oxford is also massively overstaffed and with an HSS driver depot opened at Worcester their workload is decreasing. 
The problem they've been faced with is the drivers who have left/transferred or are shortly to leave include the driving instructors.
TfL are proposing a train every 5 minutes West of Paddington plus they have proposed an enhanced peak service which will see TfL take the 5 GWR services operating in both peaks on the relief lines.


Good point.  I hadn't considered that. 

 

The 0134 was replaced by buses. I took the following screenshot that evening:

 
Thank you for your first post, and that screenshot, hassaanhc - and may I offer you a very warm welcome to the Coffee Shop forum. 

 

Welcome indeed to the forum.

It's ironic that a shortage of one train driver that night lead to a requirement for at least two bus drivers, and perhaps one more than that if the incoming service was also replaced by a bus that would still be some way off Paddington when the return service left.

 
An emergency agreement between GWR and LTV drivers for some flexibility to their conditions has been reached. With immediate effect drivers can agree to do different turns if it suits them. If a driver has the route and traction knowledge ( such as an instructor or assessor) they can now work any turn even if not training another driver. This was previously being done which was a breach of conditions. A driver who does overtime will get a taxi home if the new end time means they can not get home by train. A one off payment is being made to all LTV drivers for the above.

From next week additional flex to.those drivers who.opt in and agree. The drivers turn can be extended by 1 hour (start or end) for any reason. This was previously not allowed. And a spare, rest day work or someone on overtime was needed. This mainly affects very early and late trains due to engineering and the retaining of services or ECS moves to depots.

These arrangements are a short term fix and valid.until end of the year only.
Harmonization talks are ongoing for a long term fix

 
I wonder if some sort of agreement has been reached with West train crew as well? Very few services affected by train crew shortages today. A huge improvement on last week 

 
Indeed one swallow doesn't make a summer, or should it - now we are in October - be one avocet doesn't make an autumn, but only two cancellations so far (1 HSS from Bristol to London and 1 Bristol Parkway to Portsmouth) but also no over-running engineering work and no reported short formed workings.
.
.
.
.
.
so far! 

 
The over-running work moved north to Berwick this morning. Trains up to 2hrs late southbound at Newcastle.

 

Ironically, one of the SWR services from Bristol is cancelled due to crew issues!

 
Amazing the effect a "one off payment" can have on the prioritisation of work/life balance!!! 

 
I would imagine there will be roughly a 75/25 percentage split in favour of opting in.  Good time of year to be offering a 'bonus' with Christmas presents to pay for!  With harmonisation unlikely to be sorted until the new year (agreement reached/members balloted/having a deal put in place all takes time even if it clears at the first hurdle) this was realistically the only way of stemming the worst of the current mini-crisis on LTV and allowing for drivers to be released to learn 387s ready for the Didcot launch in January.

 

Thanks for the welcome! I live locally to Southall station and use it quite regularly. I've been lucky to not been affected by these cancellations, and I also have alternative routes that I can use. I was actually out late on the above night and did consider using the 0034 from Paddington, but as the services either side were cancelled I didn't trust this one to run either, and instead used the Piccadilly line to Hounslow East. Really can't be fun waiting for a replacement bus at that time of night, especially as you can't track it online.

 
Welcome, Hassaanhc.  It's nice to hear the views of a regular traveller from Southall as the inner Thames Valley stations are amongst the busiest passenger wise, yet worst represented in terms of people on this forum.

 
I would prefer 'least' rather than 'worst'. 

 
Yeah I've noticed the lack of posts about the London stations. I have mostly been an irregular off peak passenger until recently, but from today I'll be commuting about 4 times a week (although not all of them in the peak). The service has become far more attractive to use since the extra Hayes & Harlington services started, which plug big gaps both off peak and at certain times in the morning peak. Previously my preferred route for Z1 was using SWR from Hounslow, especially in the morning peak, but the 0821 from Southall is a perfect option now (previously there was a gap from 0810 to 0836). Just hope it doesn't get cancelled!

 

I posted such a suggestion in another thread about Sunday cancelations months ago. Maybe I should start charging them consultancy fees